Fred Faulkner's theories
- References:
- Sources yet to be consulted:
-
Papers of the Lucas family (including papers of Ryan of Ballymackeogh).
LE37
in
NUIG Library.
- LE37/2. The Ryan family.
- LE37/2/6. Ryan family: collected notes on genealogy.
- Statement of case, Daunt etc. v. Ryan, 1796, containing genealogical information on Ryan family of Co. Tipperary, 18th century.
M. 5482
in
[NAI].
-
[NLI]
GO report on Ryan of Ballymackeogh, Co. Tipperary, c.1600 to 1865.
Ms.818(9).
Claims of links to the landed gentry Ryans
Our family is
Ryan of Newross, a Catholic tenant family, called the Ryan "Tim" family.
Newross is NE of
Newport, Co.Tipperary.
Fred Faulkner
researched the family tree, and produced a
family history in 1985.
His theory was that our family descends from the landed gentry Ryans of the same area:
- Ryan of Ballymackeogh House (big house),
Ballymackeogh townland (SW of Newport).
These were Protestant.
- Ryan of Derryleigh House and Mount Prospect (big houses), Derryleigh townland (SE of Newport).
These were Protestant.
These are related to Ryan of Ballymackeogh House.
Fred Faulkner said there was
a family tradition that our Ryans descend from Protestants.
That may be true, and many Protestant gentry families in Ireland
do have irregular and disinherited Catholic offshoots.
But proof is needed.
Fred gives a specific descent from the Protestant landed gentry
Ryans of Ballymackeogh (see below).
But he does not give enough evidence for this specific claim.
Ballymackeogh House,
in Ballymackeogh townland, SW of Newport,
on
1829 to 1842 map.
Derryleigh House
and Mount Prospect,
both in Derryleigh townland, SE of Newport,
on
1829 to 1842 map.
Newport area
on
p.99
of
[Taylor and Skinner, 1777].
N is to the right.
Note Ryan at Ballymackeogh House.
Newport area
on
p.210
of
[Taylor and Skinner, 1777].
N is down.
Note Ryan at Ballymackeogh House.
William Ryan, M.D., of Derryleigh
Extract from RYAN
of Ballymackeogh
in [Burkes Irish, 1912].
[Fred Faulkner]
said the 3rd son William Ryan above is our ancestor.
So here is what is proven about him:
- William Ryan,
born 1739 [by age at burial].
Described as of Ballymackeogh at mar 1764.
He mar 1764 to
Elizabeth Bradshaw [born about 1739, by age at burial].
She was sister of Robert Bradshaw, of Cullen, Co.Limerick.
See
Bradshaw estate.
See marriage
notice
in
Freemans Journal,
November 13, 1764.
Marriage licence bond,
1764,
Diocese of Cashel and Emly.
See
index entry
from
here.
William was a doctor, M.D.
They lived at Derryleigh.
They were Protestant (see burial records).
An elderly lady, Miss Lloyd, died at William's seat Derryleigh in 1802.
See item
in
Finns Leinster Journal, December 22, 1802.
Her burial entry on 12 Dec 1802 in Newport CoI par records
shows she is a Miss Lloyd of Towerhill.
William died at Derryleigh in 1805, age 66 [burial record].
He was buried at Kilvellane graveyard on 18 Feb 1805.
This is the graveyard for Kilvellane CoI parish (later called Newport CoI parish).
The graveyard is
at Ballymackeogh, close to Ballymackeogh House.
See burial transcript
from Newport CoI par records.
Says he is William Ryan, M.D., of Derryleigh.
Burial records for the family exist, but no family gravestone found in
Kilvellane gravestone inscriptions.
See death notice
in Dublin Journal, February 26, 1805.
Elizabeth died 1805, age "about 66" [burial record].
She was buried at Kilvellane graveyard on 23 July 1805.
See burial transcript
from Newport CoI par records.
It does not name her.
It says she is of Derryleigh and is
"Relict of the late Doctor William Ryan".
William's will was not proved in the Prerogative Court until 1814.
See index entry
from here.
The will would be burnt in 1922.
William and Elizabeth had issue:
- Margaret Ryan,
born 1769.
She died 1794, age 25.
She was buried at Kilvellane graveyard on 6 Sept 1794.
See burial transcript
from Newport CoI par records.
Says she is of Derryleigh, dau of William Ryan, M.D.
Marriage of William Ryan and Elizabeth Bradshaw.
From Freemans Journal,
November 13, 1764.
Death of William Ryan, M.D., at his seat Derryleigh.
From
Dublin Journal, February 26, 1805.
Fred Faulkner's claim about William Ryan, M.D.
[Fred Faulkner]
makes a strong claim about William Ryan, M.D.,
that needs strong evidence.
He says that William Ryan, M.D., and Miss Bradshaw
were parents of our
William Ryan of Newross, who he says was born 1778.
-
This seems unlikely, and no evidence is given.
No source is given for the date 1778.
- William Ryan, M.D., is Protestant, and has a big house at Derryleigh.
William Ryan of Newross is Catholic, and is a tenant farmer at Newross.
If he is son of William Ryan, M.D., why did he not inherit Derryleigh?
This could be explained I suppose if he was disinherited for marrying a Catholic.
But we need some positive evidence that he is connected to William Ryan, M.D.,
at all.
- Fred also claims that William Ryan of Newross is our ancestor, but that itself is untrue.
In fact Tim Ryan of Newross is our ancestor.
- William Ryan of Newross and Tim Ryan of Newross
both married before 1814 and both have Catholic families,
and look like brothers.
Are we to believe there are two
sons of the Protestant William Ryan, M.D., of Derryleigh,
who both married Catholics
and were both disinherited?
This seems unlikely, and no evidence is given.
Further issues with Fred Faulkner's research
- Minor things:
- Fred says William Ryan
married Miss Bradshaw in 1767 (which is incorrect).
- He says Miss Bradshaw died 21 July 1805.
No source is given.
Later he notes the entry that she was buried on 23 July 1805.
- Ryan of Mount Prospect:
-
Fred has the wife
of William Ryan of Newross,
Bridget Ryan, as being
"daughter of Michael and Bridget Ryan (Tim) of Mount Prospect".
He means
the landed gentry
Ryan of Mount Prospect.
-
This seems unlikely, and no evidence is given.
- Confusion with Tim Ryan's family:
-
Fred then gives the children of William Ryan of Newross and his wife Bridget Ryan,
but they are wrong.
They are actually the children of
Tim Ryan and Margaret Hourigan.
- Frances Tierney (born 1905) described Fred Faulkner's research as "jumbled up".
- Conclusion:
Unless new evidence turns up,
we regard it as unproven
that there is any
connection with
Ballymackeogh or
Derryleigh or
Mount Prospect.
Catholic Ryan of Ballymackeogh
[Fred Faulkner]
said there were stories of a Protestant Ryan of Ballymackeogh
with Catholic Ryan descendants.
This does seem to be true.
Here is a William Ryan of Ballymackeogh
with a child baptised
Catholic in 1835.
-
William Ryan.
He
mar Bridget Shrawn.
Listed as of Ballymackeogh (poorly spelt, but definitely Ballymackeogh) at son's bapt 1835.
They
had issue:
- William Ryan,
bapt 28 Aug 1835
[Newport RC par records],
sp Edmond Kelly and Margaret Ryan.
Baptism of William Ryan, 28 Aug 1835, in
[Newport RC par records].
[Fred Faulkner]
had a story
that a sister of
Mickey Tim's father
(i.e. a sister of
Tim Ryan of Newross)
married a member of the Gason landed gentry family.
No evidence has been found, and it seems unlikely.
- Gason were
Protestant landed gentry.
French Huguenot ancestry.
-
The main Gason seat was
Richmond (Richmond House, formerly Killashalloe), NW side of Nenagh, Co.Tipperary.
See image
from
1829 to 1842 map.
-
Richmond was an old fortified house onto which a 1733 house was built.
-
There is
no Ryan marriage in GASON in
[Burkes Irish, 1976].
The surname "Gason" seems to appear in this 13 Feb 1814 entry in
Newport RC parish records.
Transcripts read this as saying that
Bridget Gason married Patrick Shea. Marriage witnessed by Tom Gason her brother.
From
here
in the "Newport and Birdhill" register.
The surname is not very legible on the microfilm.
(todo) See original to check surname.
